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"Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
http://www.wsgf.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=15853		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Sweetz [ 31 May 2008, 03:13 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
This one I think could be safely called vert+ :)

Every piece of promo media for the game was 16:9. I wouldn't make a stink about a game that was clearly designed for widescreen first and just happens to add more vertical space for taller resolutions.
Author:  The_cranky_hermit [ 31 May 2008, 04:05 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
This one I think could be safely called vert+

Only if you're playing 4:3. If you're playing it in widescreen, it's vert -. Same with every other vert - game in existence.

Every piece of promo media for the game was 16:9.

This doesn't mean anything about how the game was designed - it just means that EA chose to use widescreen mode when recording gameplay for advertisements.

I wouldn't make a stink about a game that was clearly designed for widescreen first and just happens to add more vertical space for taller resolutions.

If you have a particular FOV frame in mind, common sense says that you wouldn't deliberately "add more vertical space" for 75% of your audience.
Author:  skipclarke [ 31 May 2008, 06:21 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
If you have a particular FOV frame in mind, common sense says that you wouldn't deliberately "add more vertical space" for 75% of your audience.

You would make it anamorphic...
Author:  Sweetz [ 31 May 2008, 07:25 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
This doesn't mean anything about how the game was designed - it just means that EA chose to use widescreen mode when recording gameplay for advertisements.

Bioware makes their own promo videos and screenshots, and they've showed it in 16:9 at press event Bioware themselves hosted.

Sure I can't prove they designed for 16:9, but at the same time just cause it's vert- doesn't mean it wasn't designed primarily for 16:9 displays. If you think it was designed for 4:3, well you're entitled to your opinion, but given that it started life as a 360 game and given how they've showed it off, I think it's safe and logical to assume was designed first and foremost for 16:9 HDTVs, the 16:9 FOV is the intended FOV, and taller aspects are really seeing more than is intended.

If you have a particular FOV frame in mind, common sense says that you wouldn't deliberately "add more vertical space" for 75% of your audience.

Yeah you add black bars and then you get that 75% of the audience bitching about the black bars a la Assassin's Creed. It's certinaly possible that they didn't pay a lot of attention to the experience on taller displays just as many developers have ignored the experience on wider displays.

------

Anyway, chillax. I'm not asking for the grade to be changed. Even if it was designed first and foremost for 16:9, I still don't think that makes vert-/+ behavior ok. They should be adjusting the FOV based on the aspect. I'm just saying that widescreen users can make a fairly confident bet that they're not getting a diminished experience from what the developers intended. Certainly at the very least, you're not getting a diminished experience versus a person playing the 360 version on a 16:9 HDTV - which I'm sure would be what the developers would indicate as being the optimal way to play the game on that platform.
Author:  skipclarke [ 31 May 2008, 09:07 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
Stevedroid, I here what you're saying, but for me the classic example is still Bioshock. All during the development, 2K said that the game would properly support widescreens, and that widescreen owners would see more. The game comes out and it doesn't. They claim "artistic design," but then they release a patch to enable Hor+.

If that was *really* their artistic stance, make it anamorphic. Don't let me compromise your vision, as an artist. Have your vision, and be ready to take the heat from the 4:3 players. Insist that *they* conform to your vision, or suffer the potential diminished experience of black bars.

PS - I split this off as not to hijack the Mass Effect DR.
Author:  Sweetz [ 31 May 2008, 10:07 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
They released a patch after much griping and a rather amazing amount of press on the issue. Fulfilling a customer's wishes doesn't mean you were lying about your choice in the first place.

You know at the time I was right there with you guys in thinking they were full of it, but now I think it was naive and arrogant of us to assume that they were lying and that they specifically choose that FOV for 16:9. Who are we to tell them what they did and did not choose? It was a 360 game, they had to be play testing it on HDTVs throughout development.

The problem with BioShock is that even if they did specifically choose that FOV for 16:9, their choice sucked; it was just too small. As the arguments went on, I even suggested that we push this - that we stop (futily) trying to convince people it was the "wrong" widescreen implementation and instead focus on saying that the FOV was just uncomfortably small at widescreen resolutions regardless of what we thought correct behavior should be and why shouldn't we be able to chance it since it's a common option in many other FPSes.

With Mass Effect and Gears of War, the FOV at 16:9 feels ok.

Again, I am not saying that vert- or vert+ is acceptable behavior. I 100% agree the the FOV should either change based on the aspect, or the game should be fixed apsect (anamorphic).

I don't even really think the grading should be changed. I just sort of take issue with the fact that we're essentially saying that 16:9/16:10 is a "compromised" experience, when in my opinion it is not because I believe these games were developed first and foremost for 16:9.
Author:  Paradigm Shifter [ 31 May 2008, 12:10 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
They released a patch after much griping and a rather amazing amount of press on the issue. Fulfilling a customer's wishes doesn't mean you were lying about your choice in the first place.

No.

But the fact that Ken Levine was quoted in interview as saying "you will see more with widescreen" (I can't be bothered to try to find the quote) before the game was released, would seem to imply that you see more in widescreen.

Not less.

So if nothing else, he lied.

And then turned around and made out he didn't, and that we were the ogre in the forest and he was the innocent one who was being victimised.

If you don't mean something - don't say it.
Author:  Abram [ 31 May 2008, 12:43 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
They released a patch within a few weeks.

That's good enough for me.

Using the console, you can change the FOV a-la other UT3 games, but the result is the same. Broken ZOOM. The pistol still zooms a bit but the sniper rifle does not. (sure was nice to see it with 90° view, though)
Author:  Paddy the Wak [ 31 May 2008, 13:18 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
Exactly Mr P ... it was after Ken Levine said "you will see more with widescreen" (in a post on the 2K forum after being asked about it ) that he then claimed that the view in widescreen (cut down) was "artistic design" ... lol ... he then winged about the bitter vitriol of the widescreen community ... :?

At the same time 2K thanked me in an email and complimented me on the WSGF and our community and they even sent Racer_S a 8800 for his work on the FOV tool.

@ mikeh ... how did you get the console to work ?
Author:  P-Storm [ 31 May 2008, 15:08 ]
Post subject:  "Vert+" discussion on Mass Effect and Console Game
Paddy, search in the detailed report, i've read it there.
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